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Would you consider Omar to be a guitar virtuoso?Or is he just a lazy hack who knows nothing of theory?


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#41 SpiralingAgony

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 09:34 AM

sorry

IMO this is a shitty thread

does he need to be a virtuoso? why?

do YOU need him to be a virtuoso? why?

if you're trying to impress your friends or something, stop.. on all fronts












castillo, didn't you make the thread asking if they're doing enough for animal rights?
if you are the same one, stop it, you're making really shitty threads.
sorry, just my opinion...



Edit: SMFH @'lazy hack who knows nothing of theory'
motherfucker, if its that important, stop listening... that's a pretty condescending-ass tone... smMFh
seriously...

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 05:45 PM

I don't give a shit if he is inspired by a bunch of obscure and well-known artists.

I dream to someday be both obscure AND well-known. Dear God.

#43 Nizzim

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 06:49 PM

sorry

IMO this is a shitty thread

does he need to be a virtuoso? why?

do YOU need him to be a virtuoso? why?

if you're trying to impress your friends or something, stop.. on all fronts












castillo, didn't you make the thread asking if they're doing enough for animal rights?
if you are the same one, stop it, you're making really shitty threads.
sorry, just my opinion...



Edit: SMFH @'lazy hack who knows nothing of theory'
motherfucker, if its that important, stop listening... that's a pretty condescending-ass tone... smMFh
seriously...



Dude....shut the fuck up with all this.


you sound like such a dick rider. asking if people consider someone to a caliber of some sort isnt stupid, its a legit question.

the animal rights thing was a bit much, but this is fine.


quit sounding so gay for these guys

#44 Destinite

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 10:08 PM

I don't give a shit if he is inspired by a bunch of obscure and well-known artists.

I dream to someday be both obscure AND well-known. Dear God.


Interpretation FAIL.

Obscure artists and well-known artists. There, I spelled it out for you. Want me to change your didee and warm your milk too?

#45 feelzapowuh

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 10:23 PM

I don't give a shit if he is inspired by a bunch of obscure and well-known artists.

I dream to someday be both obscure AND well-known. Dear God.


Interpretation FAIL.

Obscure artists and well-known artists. There, I spelled it out for you. Want me to change your didee and warm your milk too?


...

Shouldn't it be 'or'...?

#46 nevbox

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 10:40 PM

He is self-taught which means he, most likely, knows nothing of music theory. He isn't lazy, he just plays what he knows. You can consider him a virtuoso but many musicians may strongly disagree. His creative mind for music has brought him to write all of those great pieces of music. I can see how you would consider him a virtuoso, but I can also see how some can call him "lazy" or a "bad" guitar player.

#47 AngelsThanatos

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 10:52 PM

The noise he makes on that guitar sounds good to me, and that's all I really care about. :closedeyes:

#48 SpiralingAgony

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Posted 22 July 2009 - 12:49 AM

sorry

IMO this is a shitty thread

does he need to be a virtuoso? why?

do YOU need him to be a virtuoso? why?

if you're trying to impress your friends or something, stop.. on all fronts












castillo, didn't you make the thread asking if they're doing enough for animal rights?
if you are the same one, stop it, you're making really shitty threads.
sorry, just my opinion...



Edit: SMFH @'lazy hack who knows nothing of theory'
motherfucker, if its that important, stop listening... that's a pretty condescending-ass tone... smMFh
seriously...



Dude....shut the fuck up with all this.


you sound like such a dick rider. asking if people consider someone to a caliber of some sort isnt stupid, its a legit question.

the animal rights thing was a bit much, but this is fine.


quit sounding so gay for these guys



don't really give Shit One what you think but thanks for playing

my tone might have been harsh but really who the fuck cares if dude's a virtuoso or not

the ppl on the message board think he's not a virtuoso.. fucking tragedy

and I still SMFH @'lazy hack who knows nothing of theory'

#49 Cyggy

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Posted 22 July 2009 - 10:36 PM

Not a virtuoso, but he writes some pretty good songs.

#50 Lewis T

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 04:05 PM

not knowing theory does not constitute being a bad musician

thus ends my contribution to this thread.

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 09:58 PM

I don't give a shit if he is inspired by a bunch of obscure and well-known artists.

I dream to someday be both obscure AND well-known. Dear God.


Interpretation FAIL.

Obscure artists and well-known artists. There, I spelled it out for you. Want me to change your didee and warm your milk too?


...

Shouldn't it be 'or'...?

lulz. that's all I gotta say, to both your perceived fail and the correction.

#52 Chompist

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 10:15 PM

not knowing theory does not constitute being a bad musician

thus ends my contribution to this thread.


I only feel this is partially true. Hear me out...let me explain first:

A prominent classical music critic once reviewed an album by The Beatles back in the 1960s. The critic praised the complexity of the music, and specifically mentioned the use of an "Aeolian cadence" in the harmony of one of the songs. When Paul McCartney got wind of this comment, he responded along the lines of, "What's an Aeolian cadence? Is that some kind of bird or something?"

Here's my argument: while Paul did not know what an Aeolian cadence is, he knew how to use it. He most likely heard it in another piece of music and then implemented it himself. Just the same, Omar may not know what a tritone is...or what a diminished scale is...or what motivic development is...but he definitely knows how to use these elements in his soloing. So I would argue that a good musician needs to know music theory, just not in the strict sense of the term. In other words, many musicians may not have the knowledge of musical terms to describe theoretically what they're doing, but they must know how to use music theory in its more practical form.

I often feel music theory gets a bad reputation...people who know theory are condescending to those who don't, while people who don't know it feels that it ruins the experience of listening to music. Music theory to me is just a tool used to get inside of a composer's head, and figuring out why they chose certain structural elements of the music in order to convey a specific emotion in the music. Its when you get caught up in all the jargon and the 'mathematics' surrounding music theory that you really begin to lose sight of what the music is about. Otherwise, it's a wonderful tool that adds another layer of depth for the listener.

#53 warrenoates

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 02:36 AM

to me, there's a difference between a "musician" and a "guitar player." a musician is one who is proficient on an instrument(s) and has a theoretical knowledge of music as well as proficience with said instrument(s). a "guitar player" is one who may be able to shred and wail, but with no real knowledge of music theory.

i think omar is a great guitar player, and a decent musician based on my above criteria.

this is a nonjudgmental post, so feel free to disagree with me, but do it in a respectable manner so i don't get pissed. :smile:

#54 Nizzim

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 11:56 PM

Theory has its place, but it really is just old ways of trying to solidify musical ideas that are ever present and have been around since music.


The idea of music being intertwined with math and numerical value is as intrinsic as the emotion of the notes themselves. To try to put words and definite terms to universal ideas is just for the help of the person seeking it.


Again, its good that it exists, but it is NOT necessary in developing a sense of musical prowess. It grows into a person when they push themselves into the realm of different and open musicality.

and thats my contribution.

#55 Lewis T

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 12:47 AM

not knowing theory does not constitute being a bad musician

thus ends my contribution to this thread.


I only feel this is partially true. Hear me out...let me explain first:

A prominent classical music critic once reviewed an album by The Beatles back in the 1960s. The critic praised the complexity of the music, and specifically mentioned the use of an "Aeolian cadence" in the harmony of one of the songs. When Paul McCartney got wind of this comment, he responded along the lines of, "What's an Aeolian cadence? Is that some kind of bird or something?"

Here's my argument: while Paul did not know what an Aeolian cadence is, he knew how to use it. He most likely heard it in another piece of music and then implemented it himself. Just the same, Omar may not know what a tritone is...or what a diminished scale is...or what motivic development is...but he definitely knows how to use these elements in his soloing. So I would argue that a good musician needs to know music theory, just not in the strict sense of the term. In other words, many musicians may not have the knowledge of musical terms to describe theoretically what they're doing, but they must know how to use music theory in its more practical form.

I often feel music theory gets a bad reputation...people who know theory are condescending to those who don't, while people who don't know it feels that it ruins the experience of listening to music. Music theory to me is just a tool used to get inside of a composer's head, and figuring out why they chose certain structural elements of the music in order to convey a specific emotion in the music. Its when you get caught up in all the jargon and the 'mathematics' surrounding music theory that you really begin to lose sight of what the music is about. Otherwise, it's a wonderful tool that adds another layer of depth for the listener.


I see your point; yes, music theory perhaps inadvertently seeps into, for example, Omar's guitar playing. But then, if he doesn't actively know he's doing it, is it really theory itself that has made it what it is? After all, "tritone" is just a word, a concept, and "16/29" is just two numbers. Omar didn't write a song, thinking "now I will implement tritone"; he wrote a song, and it happened to be tritone. That's just what came out of his head. If you see what I mean.

I agree with you saying that musical theory gets a bad reputation, and yeah, I think it goes two ways. I think that a lot of people who know theory are elitist [and I know this from personal experience, although it may be a generalization]. Hell, there are a lot of people very knowledgable of theory on this board and I've seen so many condescending remarks made by them- even towards me because I count the drum in a segment of Day of the Baphomets as "1-2-3-4-5/1-2-3-4-5-6" because it is not the "correct" way of counting it or the "proper" time signature.

When it comes down to it, okay, in a sense, knowing theory makes you a "good" musician. I've been playing guitar for nearly ten years and I'm still only average as far as theory goes [because I've never had a lesson/read up]. Theoretically that goes without saying. But to me, [although I guess it's relative], a good musician is just someone who gets inspiration and plays it. It doesn't have to have an impressive time signature, or a complex solo. Some of my favourite favourite songs in the world are simple, stuff that even I can play.

I hope some/all of that makes sense. Haha. But no, I'm liking this discussion.

#56 The Flatline 2

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 03:46 AM

alrighty, since this is my first post in the thread i'll reply to the initial thought.

MAYBE, Omar could be a virtuoso, in truth, only time will tell in this case. If Omar continues to get better, like he has been. If Omar continues to write 5-10 albums a year, and he doesn't "lose his gift" (what ever the fuck that means) he will probably go down as a Guitar God, a Virtuoso, a Classic Guitarist of the early millenium, maybe even a shakespeare of music. you just don't know.

to make the whole argument even more complicated, in the time it takes for Omar to be a virtuoso (60 years?) SOME people will decide he is a hack, and SOME people will decide he is a god. The rest will have some complex thought about him

to say something like my above statement on THIS forum is almost a paradox in it's repetition but i wanted to make myself clear.

I think Omar is a beast. Personally, Almost every single Atd-i, De Facto, ORLG, and TMV song hits me where it counts.

I didn't even like The Mars Volta until i saw them live, no one has ever blown me away like they did that night. No one plays like those two (eight) it's never been heard before, isn't that enough?

#57 oui

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 04:23 PM

Everyone should know.....

Omar knows theory! Does he know a lot of theory? NO, but he still has a great idea as to whats going on with the music. He's been playing music for how long? You're going to tell me he hasn't learned anything along the way? Bullocks.

The more one plays music, especially with the musicians he or she plays with, the more theory you "pick up" from other musicians. I flatpick the acoustic guitar (bluegrass style).... I've played with so many other great players (one fiddler, particularly) and I've learned a lot of theoretical terms and ideas from them. If you've been playing music for a while, you can't not learn new things... plain and simple

#58 The Flatline 2

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 09:25 PM

100% agreed. just by playing by yourself or with other people. Hell even just listening to music and experiencing things in music you've never imagined will increase YOUR musical theory. My friend and i learned a new key a couple nights ago. it blew our mind, how many cool riffs were ripping out, funky grooves we'd heard before but never been able to play ourselves. I know i need to know more modes and more interesting scales, they'll come in time, when my mind plays them for me, i'll be able to play them through the instrument, the songs i play always play in my head before i even know what note it's supposed to be, most of my songwriting trouble comes from trying to make a sound i know would fit in that spot but being unable to locate it on the guitar/ piano/ drumkit.

do you think it's interesting that only humans play music?

#59 Chompist

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 12:00 AM

The idea of music being intertwined with math and numerical value is as intrinsic as the emotion of the notes themselves. To try to put words and definite terms to universal ideas is just for the help of the person seeking it.


Yes I definitely agree. These really are universal ideas, and people understand them in all different ways. A "tritone" to a music theory nut may be the color "red" to a person with synaesthesia, or it maybe just "scary/evil" to the average listener.

But like you said, it helps the people seeking it. For me, it almost provides a new language for "musical shorthand" so to speak. For instance, if I listen to a song I can maybe recognize a chord progression and then tell some one else versed in music theory: "Hey, play these chords on that piano". The theory knowledge just makes this process go much faster than having to struggle to explain it.

I see your point; yes, music theory perhaps inadvertently seeps into, for example, Omar's guitar playing. But then, if he doesn't actively know he's doing it, is it really theory itself that has made it what it is? After all, "tritone" is just a word, a concept, and "16/29" is just two numbers. Omar didn't write a song, thinking "now I will implement tritone"; he wrote a song, and it happened to be tritone. That's just what came out of his head. If you see what I mean.


I see exactly what you mean...and I think we both mean the same thing. Just like Nizzim said, a "tritone" is a universal idea (or a concept like you said), and however Omar recognizes it, he does. When he's composing, you're right he doesn't say "now I will implement a tritone", but what if he just says "I want a crunchy sound here, and it will convey an evil emotion to the listener". Or when he uses a crazy time signature, he's thinking "I feel this strange groove in my head...let me try and teach it to Juan". To me he is using music theory, but just using different names to describe it.

So here is the question I'm getting at...can Omar compose a tritone or use a crazy time signature without having any concept of it whatsoever? Does that make sense? It's an awfully hard thing for me to spill out from my head...so hard to put into words!

I agree with you saying that musical theory gets a bad reputation, and yeah, I think it goes two ways. I think that a lot of people who know theory are elitist [and I know this from personal experience, although it may be a generalization]. Hell, there are a lot of people very knowledgable of theory on this board and I've seen so many condescending remarks made by them- even towards me because I count the drum in a segment of Day of the Baphomets as "1-2-3-4-5/1-2-3-4-5-6" because it is not the "correct" way of counting it or the "proper" time signature.


I know the part you are talking about...and I count it the exact same way haha!

Everyone should know.....

Omar knows theory! Does he know a lot of theory? NO, but he still has a great idea as to whats going on with the music. He's been playing music for how long? You're going to tell me he hasn't learned anything along the way? Bullocks.

The more one plays music, especially with the musicians he or she plays with, the more theory you "pick up" from other musicians. I flatpick the acoustic guitar (bluegrass style).... I've played with so many other great players (one fiddler, particularly) and I've learned a lot of theoretical terms and ideas from them. If you've been playing music for a while, you can't not learn new things... plain and simple



100% agreed. just by playing by yourself or with other people. Hell even just listening to music and experiencing things in music you've never imagined will increase YOUR musical theory. My friend and i learned a new key a couple nights ago. it blew our mind, how many cool riffs were ripping out, funky grooves we'd heard before but never been able to play ourselves. I know i need to know more modes and more interesting scales, they'll come in time, when my mind plays them for me, i'll be able to play them through the instrument, the songs i play always play in my head before i even know what note it's supposed to be, most of my songwriting trouble comes from trying to make a sound i know would fit in that spot but being unable to locate it on the guitar/ piano/ drumkit.


Right...this is what I'm saying. You just pick up on these universal ideas of music...they are almost like archetypes that have been around since the beginning of time that are buried deep in musical memory...and by listening to other music you slowly flesh these archetypes out and begin to use them yourself. Again, Omar doesn't know what a tritone is, but he probably heard someone use it (maybe Robert Fripp?) and was like "I like that...and I like the emotion it conveys to me...I will use that when I play". And however you want to name or define these musical ideas, I feel that what makes a great musician is the mastery of using these concepts to exude a specific emotion or idea.

do you think it's interesting that only humans play music?


I think it's a very trippy idea. It's kind of like the tree in the woods thing...if there were no humans in existence in the universe, there would be no music...because it is a purely human phenomenon. Whhhhhoa!

#60 Nizzim

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 02:14 AM

Okay


A Tritone, isnt something to know and apply, i mean it is. But its also a standard chord found and usable in every scale. Omar knows what it is, he likes writing in a style that uses tritonal progressions, to him it just sounds badass, he doesnt need to question it i dont think

Theory is important because music is math. There are additive and subtractive properties involved. There are right and wrong ways to do it. Things are proven musically. A certain rhythm is just that....its a CERTAIN rhythm, unique unto itself, every time I hear a waltz, its a waltz because its in that 3/4 as it most likely will always be in some form.

Music is music without humans, we have found the ways to capture it, and sing it back to the clouds.

But sounds, notation, key, harmony, melody, all of these elements are part of what make up the universe/

Symmetry in music, color in music, look it up. Music is the life thread.




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