7799 replies to this topic

[hottnikkels]

It's a matter of the basics of form, children.  Bona fide songwriting requires a set of dimensions utterly lacking in rap: structure (in the Aristotelian sense--meaning beginning, mounting tension, climax, denoument); structure (in the chromatic sense); melody, a dimension of limitless permutational potential absent from rap; and the interactional dimension of melodic/lyrical con-fusion. 
Typical song structure: A (intro); B (verse); C (chorus); B, C, D (bridge), C, maybe C again, etc....
Typical rap: A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A ... ad nauseum, "A" representing a looped sample of some pretty damned great Motown classic.

OK once again not all hip-hop is created from samples. As was mentioned before many different hip-hop groups have very talented bands that write their own original material. Clouddead, Dalek, and Blackalicious just to name a few, and they follow the same verse/chorus/verse structure that any rock band follows. And Even those that don't have their own bands have producers that use studio musicians and create original works just like the Motown artist you appreciate.

To put some rapster on the same level of a true songwriter is to do a great disservice and to show a lack of appreciation for the spiritual efforts of the person who bothered to learn how to play an instrument, tap into the art of songwriting, and create something original and indelible to contribute to the world.

Once again it's not just a "rapster", their are many bands that work together to create hip-hop music or it's the same situation of a motown artist who has studio musicians. And since when is poetry not original, indelible, and requiring of spiritual efforts. So poetry isn't art on the level of playing a guitar?

Now, mind you, I know that not all rap is the "typical" variety I illustrated above, but I have no interest in stuff like the Roots, whom people treat like Isaac Newton for learning how to competently wield organic instruments.  Big deal; it just shows how much the bar has been lowered by rap for the demands we place on musicians.

The musicians in The Roots are as talented as anybody else that can play a instrument you moron. You don't think they can play at the same level as any rock band? You make it sound like everybody's so proud of the fact that these idiots learned how to pluck a string. Get a clue

[hottnikkels]

The way something is structured does not make something valid or invalid art, or ever make something enjoyable, heartfelt, meaningful, or emotional.

Thank You, Nick Drake's "Horn" off of his 'Pink Moon" album is one of the most emotional and heartfelt songs I've ever heard, and it's also his most simple.

[BEEL]

I haven't seen Blackstar mentioned (although Mos Def was mentioned), so get that album ("Mos Def and Talib Kweli are Blackstar", "Blackstar: Self Titled", etc. Nobody calls it the same thing).


Also, perhaps Mr. Id could understand rap as a form of poetry to a beat, because poetry has no set form.

That being said, music doesn't have to have a set form either. There is no reason to create more rules to hamper us.

[hottnikkels]

I'm glad that this came up though, because the convention didn't cover this topic very much. So I guess we can thank Mr. Id for that, and I believe we've now covered all the bases.

[Agajagajagajagajaga]

He obviously can't make even a halfway decent argument to back his words up, so that makes anything he says completely worthless. For someone that seems to think of himself as some sort of an intellectual his stubbornness and apathy has led him to sound pretty ignorant if you ask me.

It's a matter of the basics of form, children. Bona fide songwriting requires a set of dimensions utterly lacking in rap: structure (in the Aristotelian sense--meaning beginning, mounting tension, climax, denoument); structure (in the chromatic sense); melody, a dimension of limitless permutational potential absent from rap; and the interactional dimension of melodic/lyrical con-fusion.
Typical song structure: A (intro); B (verse); C (chorus); B, C, D (bridge), C, maybe C again, etc....
Typical rap: A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A ... ad nauseum, "A" representing a looped sample of some pretty damned great Motown classic.

To put some rapster on the same level of a true songwriter is to do a great disservice and to show a lack of appreciation for the spiritual efforts of the person who bothered to learn how to play an instrument, tap into the art of songwriting, and create something original and indelible to contribute to the world.

Now, mind you, I know that not all rap is the "typical" variety I illustrated above, but I have no interest in stuff like the Roots, whom people treat like Isaac Newton for learning how to competently wield organic instruments. Big deal; it just shows how much the bar has been lowered by rap for the demands we place on musicians.

This is not a subjective analysis, either, so just quit with that.

Argumentum ad antiquatum. We call that a fallacy of logic, Mr. Aristotle.

[CAMiasm]

the thread i've been waiting for! i have a lot of listening to do, thanks to all who were involved in this wonderful convention.

[themayanlion]

He obviously can't make even a halfway decent argument to back his words up, so that makes anything he says completely worthless. For someone that seems to think of himself as some sort of an intellectual his stubbornness and apathy has led him to sound pretty ignorant if you ask me.

It's a matter of the basics of form, children. Bona fide songwriting requires a set of dimensions utterly lacking in rap: structure (in the Aristotelian sense--meaning beginning, mounting tension, climax, denoument); structure (in the chromatic sense); melody, a dimension of limitless permutational potential absent from rap; and the interactional dimension of melodic/lyrical con-fusion.
Typical song structure: A (intro); B (verse); C (chorus); B, C, D (bridge), C, maybe C again, etc....
Typical rap: A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A ... ad nauseum, "A" representing a looped sample of some pretty damned great Motown classic.

To put some rapster on the same level of a true songwriter is to do a great disservice and to show a lack of appreciation for the spiritual efforts of the person who bothered to learn how to play an instrument, tap into the art of songwriting, and create something original and indelible to contribute to the world.

Now, mind you, I know that not all rap is the "typical" variety I illustrated above, but I have no interest in stuff like the Roots, whom people treat like Isaac Newton for learning how to competently wield organic instruments. Big deal; it just shows how much the bar has been lowered by rap for the demands we place on musicians.

This is not a subjective analysis, either, so just quit with that.

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha wow.

yeah i forgot how talented you have to be to bang out powerchords in a verse chorus verse song.

we should let green day teach at juliard.

[Carruthers]

Typical song structure: A (intro); B (verse); C (chorus); B, C, D (bridge), C, maybe C again, etc....
Typical rap: A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A ... ad nauseum, "A" representing a looped sample of some pretty damned great Motown classic.

Well, let's test your little theory with a song by a man who is arguably the most commercially prominent man in rap music right now.

IN DA CLUB BY 50 CENT.

PART A : Intro - This is where Fiddy is shouting GO SHORTY.
PART B : Verse - Just a bunch of rapping about how awesome he is at rapping also making money and having sex.
PART C : Chorus - The hook of the song. It is primarily a description of where he can be found if need be, but secondarily, it is a notice he is putting out to females to notify them as to his manner in between the sheets.
PART D : Bridge - This part is pretty cool cause the synthesizer violins get all dramatic sounding and he is talking about how rich he is and how he made that money (rapping) as opposed to how his videos depict him making money (robbery, murder, etc.)
PART B : More talk about money.
PART C : You have to admit, it is a catchy hook.
PART E : Outro - In this part, Curtis Jackson identifies the record labels he pledges allegience to.

PROVED YOU WRONG SO SHUT THE FUCKING FUCK UP CAKEASS.

Also, have you ever produced a hiphop record? I live by cratedigging. I have divested my entire life into finding new phat jawns to sample and create new tracks. It is far far FAR FUCKING HARDER than just sampling "a damned great Motown classic". So don't fucking talk, white boy.

[hottnikkels]

I knew when I saw "Last Post by Xntrik" I was in store for something good.

:ol_lol:

[Smilin' Desperado]

I FLOW IN ODD TIME SIGNATURES!

[Smilin' Desperado]

yea, xntrik is good people, especially cause he has heard youth of today

[jmanin2]

public enemy

[Carruthers]

yea, xntrik is good people, especially cause he has heard youth of today

I called myself straight edge for five years. I owned a fucking Chain of Strength hoodie.

[Smilin' Desperado]

you still listen to hardcore?


i love youth of today


and have COS on vinyl, but not a huge fan

[sagechild]

i didn't know that music is this complicated. i just ingest it as it is shit. well, here's mine to share: typical cats, gangstarr, lords of the underground, aceyalone, pharcyde, ditc (digging in the crates), leaders of the new school, dead prez, dj krush, freestyle fellowship, souls of mischief, dilated peoples, the arsonists, mc supernatural and all that's been mentioned.

[Mexican Seafood]

Ok...so i typed a load of stuf agreeing with Xntrik, but the server fucked and i lost it. Pretty much, anyone who has made ANY kind of music knows how hard it is to make anything sound good.

As for the list: Jurassic 5-LP. They are some of the best writers I know, full stop.

"Fuck the first amendment/My speech was free the day that my soul descended"

:)

[hottnikkels]

lords of the underground

Wow. Good call, they used to be one of my favorites. I thought about naming them myself, but I didn't think anyone would be familiar with them.

[Carruthers]

you still listen to hardcore?

I don't. Playing in a hardcore band made me hate that shit.

Also, to Mr. Id : If hiphop is so formulaic and easy to make, why aren't you making mad cash by doing it?

I bet your response will be "OH I'M BETTER THAN THAT AND I ONLY LIKE REAL MUSIC."

[hottnikkels]

I'm recommending "13 & God"

I've been seeing this album around the internet, but I figured it must just be the latest "if you want to consider yourself cool, download this" album. Then I actually took a moment to read a review, and I find out it's a collaboration between German electro-pop group "Notwist" and Berkley based hip-hop group "Themselves." So I downloaded it and it's a freaking really good album. It's chill, glitchy, groovy, melodic, electro hip-hop. The guys from "themselves" sing half the songs and rap the other half and you've probably never heard rappers with this sort of style before, it's very eccentric but it's accesible and it blends with the "Notwist" beats perfectly.

If you like "Digital ash in a Digital Urn", "postal service", "The foreign exchange", or anticon artists you should really enjoy this album

here's a sample song
http://rapidshare.de...ed-hbz.mp3.html

[CAMiasm]

that link doesn't work, hotnikkels.