IPB Style© Fisana

Jump to content



Please donate to gain access to The Bedlam, an ad-free version of the board and more!


Photo

Amputechture time signatures


  • Please log in to reply
40 replies to this topic

#1 crypsis

crypsis

    Eunuch Provocateur

  • Members
  • 9 posts
  • Joined 10-April 06

Posted 19 July 2006 - 03:18 PM

We all now TMV use some pretty twisted time signatures. So what weird timings have you guys picked up after listening to Amputechture? One that I think sounds sweet is in tetra at 11:45, where you have a bar of 3/4, then a bar of 5/4. Probably my favourite part of the album.

#2 Lachrymal Cloud

Lachrymal Cloud

    Ilyena

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3213 posts
  • Joined 03-December 05
  • Location:New Berlin, Wisconsin
  • Interests:music<br />art<br />drawing

Posted 19 July 2006 - 03:23 PM

There's a shitload of time signatures for Tetragrammaton, someone posted them... wow.

Tetragrammaton

0:00 - 2:20 -- 3/4
2:20 - 2:25 -- 10/4 (I dunno if this is an intentional deviation from 9/4)
2:25 - 2:57 -- 9/4 (Definitely 9/4. Acts sort of like 2/4 + 2/4 + 2/4 + 3/4. A lot of upbeats played. And the silence at the end of this period is actually in the same time signature. I counted.)
2:57 - 4:04 -- 3/4
4:04 - 4:08 -- 10/4 (Now it seems like this is being done intentionally)
4:08 - 4:40 -- 9/4
4:40 - 4:54 -- 17/4 (Even though it seems like it would be the same time signature as the rest of the 'chorus' because it's cut from the audio, it's actually a way different rhythm. If I am correct, it acts like 4/8 + 6/8 + 4/8 + 4/8 + 4/8 + 4/8 + 4/8 + 4/8.)
4:54 - 5:04 -- 19/8 (Just when you thought they couldn't sneak in another time signature. Acts definitely like 10/8 + 9/8.)
5:04 - 5:08 -- 12/8 (Merely one measure, but it's worth noting that the last beat is ever so slightly shortened.)
5:08 - 5:55 -- 3/4
5:55 - 6:47 -- 3/4 (This quieter section appears to be played in the style of a very rubato 3/4. So in other words, there is no exact time signature. Despite all the gaps, it still sounds like triple meter to me, but you can make your own observations.)
6:47 - 7:09 -- 15/8 (This area has a scheme based in this meter progression: 8/8 + 7/8 + 8/8 + 7/8 + 7/8 + 7/8 + 8/8 + 8/8.)
7:09 - 7:20 -- Varies (A meter of 12/8 and a meter of 13/8.)
7:20 - 7:33 -- 7/8
7:33 - 7:56 -- No Time Signature (If you counted there might be one, but because of all the ambience and the guitar noises being off beat, it should just be treated as having no time signature.)
7:56 - 7:59 -- 10/4
7:59 - 8:23 -- 9/4
8:23 - 9:14 -- 17/4 (4/4 + 4/4 + 4/4 + 5/4.)
9:14 - 9:22 -- 12/8 (5/8 + 5/8 + 2/8 for the first measure, and 4/8 + 4/8 + 4/8 for the second measure.)
9:22 - 9:45 -- 17/4 (Same as last one.)
9:45 - 9:54 -- 12/8 (Same as last one.)
9:54 - 10:00 -- 18/8 (One and one half measures of 12/8)
10:00 - 10:25 -- 17/4 (Same as last one.)
10:25 - 10:35 -- 12/8 (Same as last one.)
10:35 - 10:39 -- 10/4
10:39 - 10:53 -- 9/4 (With a very slight gap at the end.)
10:53 - 11:13 -- 4/4 (The tradeoff solos are playing 3/8 then 5/8. Also note that this is the first use of common time in the entire song.)
11:10 - 11:15 -- 13/8 (Two repetitions of 7/8 + 6/8.)
11:15 - 11:27 -- 7/8 (4/8 + 3/8.)
11:27 - 11:30 -- 12/8 (One measure only.)
11:30 - 11:37 -- 13/8 (Same as last one.)
11:37 - 11:49 -- 7/8 (4/8 + 3/8.)
11:49 - 11:55 -- 4/4
11:55 - 14:24 -- 4/4 (Very slowly.)
14:24 - 14:49 -- 17/4 (Same as last one)
14:49 - 14:58 -- 12/8 (5/8 + 5/8 + 2/8 for the first measure, and 4/8 + 4/8 + 4/8 for the second measure.)
14:58 - 15:10 -- 11/4 (5/4 + 5/4 + 6/4 + 6/4.)
15:10 - 16:22 -- 3/4
16:22 - 16:54 -- No Time Signature (Just random noises.)

#3 Pinniped Slayer

Pinniped Slayer

    Miranda

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 301 posts
  • Joined 14-July 06

Posted 19 July 2006 - 03:24 PM

concerning signatures, it's a fairly simple album. Tetra is probably the most complicated, but there's far stickier wicketts to be in, so to speak

#4 bighairystranger

bighairystranger

    Tetragrammaton Cleric

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3720 posts
  • Joined 26-November 04
  • Location:Alaska
  • Interests:Food.

Posted 19 July 2006 - 03:38 PM

This is so interesting. Too bad I am self-taught and never tried to understand time signatures... I guess I should. Any tools you guys can suggest?

#5 Yanns

Yanns

    Televator

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 244 posts
  • Joined 15-July 06
  • Location:USA
  • Interests:Music (piano playing), psychology, frisbee, and more music, basically.

Posted 19 July 2006 - 03:57 PM

Yeah, it's mainly just Tetra.

As for bighairystranger, it's basically straightforward. As we all know, 95% of music is in 4/4 -- you can clearly hear sequences of four beats. Waltzs, etc., are 3/4. All this you know.

Things like 7/8 and 6/8 are when the beats are much quicker then a 4/4 or 3/4. It's quite simple.

The main place where people get confused is the difference between things like 7/4 and 7/8. 7/8 is much quicker. If you know Perpetual Change by Yes, at 5:10, it goes to 7/8, whereas Money by Pink Floyd opens in 7/4 (technically, it's 3/4 4/4, but for the purposes of this argument, it's 7/4).

#6 Seyon

Seyon

    High Five! ヘ( ^o^)ノ\(^_^ )

  • Coma Donor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5019 posts
  • Joined 29-August 04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Toronto
  • Interests:CrossFit, Video Games, Awesome fucking music
  • Facebook

Posted 19 July 2006 - 04:15 PM

XenosX posted the time signature stuff originally

#7 XenosX

XenosX

    Eunuch Provocateur

  • Members
  • 35 posts
  • Joined 23-June 06

Posted 19 July 2006 - 04:17 PM

Hey Lachrymal Cloud, maybe a little credit where it's due?

Yeah guys, I wrote that. Thank you.

Anyways, for the rest of the album, Vermicide is technically in 15/4 at some parts, or if you must, five measures of 3/4. And Day of the Baphomets has a weird part in it as well... It's a repeating theme of one measure of 11/8, then one measure of 13/8. I hesitate to say 24/8, because that does not accurately depict the feel, which is almost like four measures of 2/8, one of 3/8, five of 2/8, and another of 3/8... (2+2+2+2+3 + 2+2+2+2+2+3). That's pretty neat. But the rest didn't have much in the way of odd rhythm, except for maybe Viscera Eyes, which has some funky rhythm and a few half measures thrown in for a good mix.

#8 Lachrymal Cloud

Lachrymal Cloud

    Ilyena

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3213 posts
  • Joined 03-December 05
  • Location:New Berlin, Wisconsin
  • Interests:music<br />art<br />drawing

Posted 19 July 2006 - 04:25 PM

Hey Lachrymal Cloud, maybe a little credit where it's due?

Yeah guys, I wrote that. Thank you.

Anyways, for the rest of the album, Vermicide is technically in 15/4 at some parts, or if you must, five measures of 3/4. And Day of the Baphomets has a weird part in it as well... It's a repeating theme of one measure of 11/8, then one measure of 13/8. I hesitate to say 24/8, because that does not accurately depict the feel, which is almost like four measures of 2/8, one of 3/8, five of 2/8, and another of 3/8... (2+2+2+2+3 + 2+2+2+2+2+3). That's pretty neat. But the rest didn't have much in the way of odd rhythm, except for maybe Viscera Eyes, which has some funky rhythm and a few half measures thrown in for a good mix.

Sorry. Haha. Yeah, XenosX wrote that... I forgot his screenname. Anyways, cool, thanks.

#9 crypsis

crypsis

    Eunuch Provocateur

  • Members
  • 9 posts
  • Joined 10-April 06

Posted 19 July 2006 - 04:50 PM

Kudos to XenosX for the mammoth effort of dissecting Tetra. However, I think the intro is in 6/8, not 3/4 as you can count 6 much easier and its too fast for 3/4. Also, as I mentioned above, the break down at 11:45 is definately a bar of 3/4, then a bar of 5/4 not 4/4. What do you reckon Yanns and Pinniped Slayer? You guys seems to know a bit about time signatures.

#10 XenosX

XenosX

    Eunuch Provocateur

  • Members
  • 35 posts
  • Joined 23-June 06

Posted 19 July 2006 - 05:04 PM

Kudos to XenosX for the mammoth effort of dissecting Tetra. However, I think the intro is in 6/8, not 3/4 as you can count 6 much easier and its too fast for 3/4. Also, as I mentioned above, the break down at 11:45 is definately a bar of 3/4, then a bar of 5/4 not 4/4. What do you reckon Yanns and Pinniped Slayer? You guys seems to know a bit about time signatures.

Well, 6/8 and 3/4 are technically the same thing, so we only disagree on how it's counted, which is arguably less important. And as for 3/4 then 5/4, again, it's the same really as 4/4, and the beat is so shallow/nonemphasized that it's difficult to pull apart anyways. I guess maybe you could call it that.

Also, I know this is a bit off topic, but does anyone have thoughts on the time signature to 'Cut that City'?

#11 Yanns

Yanns

    Televator

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 244 posts
  • Joined 15-July 06
  • Location:USA
  • Interests:Music (piano playing), psychology, frisbee, and more music, basically.

Posted 19 July 2006 - 05:42 PM

Kudos to XenosX for the mammoth effort of dissecting Tetra. However, I think the intro is in 6/8, not 3/4 as you can count 6 much easier and its too fast for 3/4. Also, as I mentioned above, the break down at 11:45 is definately a bar of 3/4, then a bar of 5/4 not 4/4. What do you reckon Yanns and Pinniped Slayer? You guys seems to know a bit about time signatures.


I know what you mean, XenosX, about 3/4 and 6/8 technically being the same. I thought 6/8 when I first heard it, still do.

As for 11:45, it's 3/4 5/4. I mean, you never know what the BAND actually considers it to be. They might look at it as 8/4. Point being, there are eight beats, not seven, so 5/4 after 3/4.


Kudos to XenosX for the mammoth effort of dissecting Tetra. However, I think the intro is in 6/8, not 3/4 as you can count 6 much easier and its too fast for 3/4. Also, as I mentioned above, the break down at 11:45 is definately a bar of 3/4, then a bar of 5/4 not 4/4. What do you reckon Yanns and Pinniped Slayer? You guys seems to know a bit about time signatures.

Well, 6/8 and 3/4 are technically the same thing, so we only disagree on how it's counted, which is arguably less important. And as for 3/4 then 5/4, again, it's the same really as 4/4, and the beat is so shallow/nonemphasized that it's difficult to pull apart anyways. I guess maybe you could call it that.

Also, I know this is a bit off topic, but does anyone have thoughts on the time signature to 'Cut that City'?


Cut That City (seems to be) 9/8 10/8 for those insane verses. At 2:24, it seems like it's 15/8. That's tough to count there.

#12 XenosX

XenosX

    Eunuch Provocateur

  • Members
  • 35 posts
  • Joined 23-June 06

Posted 19 July 2006 - 05:47 PM

Cut That City (seems to be) 9/8 10/8 for those insane verses. At 2:24, it seems like it's 15/8. That's tough to count there.

Good, I agree on 9/8 + 10/8 (19/8)... But I thought it was in common at 2:24. Maybe I'm just sleepy.

#13 Yanns

Yanns

    Televator

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 244 posts
  • Joined 15-July 06
  • Location:USA
  • Interests:Music (piano playing), psychology, frisbee, and more music, basically.

Posted 19 July 2006 - 05:51 PM


Cut That City (seems to be) 9/8 10/8 for those insane verses. At 2:24, it seems like it's 15/8. That's tough to count there.

Good, I agree on 9/8 + 10/8 (19/8)... But I thought it was in common at 2:24. Maybe I'm just sleepy.


It gets really tough there. I'm not positive, that was my first take on it. I'll try again in a sec, Amputechture is almost over.

Oh, woops. 16/8. Four groups of 4/8. Or however you want to group it. That's how I figured it out.

#14 XenosX

XenosX

    Eunuch Provocateur

  • Members
  • 35 posts
  • Joined 23-June 06

Posted 19 July 2006 - 06:00 PM

It's now verifiably common time for that part in cut that city...

However, now whenever I count to Viscera Eyes, during the chorus, I always come out with an extra beat. I think it might be a hallucination, but I'm not sure. The entire thing's really off beat, and there's a tempo change I think.

#15 Pinniped Slayer

Pinniped Slayer

    Miranda

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 301 posts
  • Joined 14-July 06

Posted 19 July 2006 - 06:01 PM

2:24 in Cut that City is common, just plays the beat weird. hell, most of Cicatriz is in 4/4, just the beat SOUNDS complicated

#16 Yanns

Yanns

    Televator

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 244 posts
  • Joined 15-July 06
  • Location:USA
  • Interests:Music (piano playing), psychology, frisbee, and more music, basically.

Posted 19 July 2006 - 06:03 PM

In case you didn't see my edited post above, you were right about 2:24 in Cut That City.

For Viscera's chorus, I hear 4/4 the whole way through until a 3/4 4/4 at the very end. Try that, maybe?

#17 XenosX

XenosX

    Eunuch Provocateur

  • Members
  • 35 posts
  • Joined 23-June 06

Posted 19 July 2006 - 06:11 PM

In case you didn't see my edited post above, you were right about 2:24 in Cut That City.

For Viscera's chorus, I hear 4/4 the whole way through until a 3/4 4/4 at the very end. Try that, maybe?

Thank You. That does the trick perfectly.

On a side note, I think I've noticed a huge trend in songwriting for the Mars Volta. Almost a signature... they often play a measure of one time signature, then drop a single eighth note for the following time signature, or conversely, add a single eighth note. I can think of more than one example.

3:19 on Cygnus... Vismund Cygnus
0:00 on Cassandra Gemini
4:11 on Cassandra Gemini
2:20 on Tetragrammaton
6:47 on Tetragrammaton
8:23 on Tetragrammaton
10:53 on Tetragrammaton
11:10 on Tetragrammaton
6:24 on Day of the Baphomets

There are tons, more, and as usual, Tetragrammaton's a wealth of information.

#18 Yanns

Yanns

    Televator

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 244 posts
  • Joined 15-July 06
  • Location:USA
  • Interests:Music (piano playing), psychology, frisbee, and more music, basically.

Posted 19 July 2006 - 06:18 PM


In case you didn't see my edited post above, you were right about 2:24 in Cut That City.

For Viscera's chorus, I hear 4/4 the whole way through until a 3/4 4/4 at the very end. Try that, maybe?

Thank You. That does the trick perfectly.

On a side note, I think I've noticed a huge trend in songwriting for the Mars Volta. Almost a signature... they often play a measure of one time signature, then drop a single eighth note for the following time signature, or conversely, add a single eighth note. I can think of more than one example.

3:19 on Cygnus... Vismund Cygnus
0:00 on Cassandra Gemini
4:11 on Cassandra Gemini
2:20 on Tetragrammaton
6:47 on Tetragrammaton
8:23 on Tetragrammaton
10:53 on Tetragrammaton
11:10 on Tetragrammaton
6:24 on Day of the Baphomets

There are tons, more, and as usual, Tetragrammaton's a wealth of information.


Hmm, wow, that's pretty interesting. 3:19 on Cygnus blew me way off when I first heard it. Then, of course, the 9/8 12/8 8/8 later on. One question: 4:11 on Cassandra sounds like it adds two eighth notes (12/8 (grouped in 4 bits of 3/4) followed by 14/8 (same as previous plus two eighths)).

#19 Seyon

Seyon

    High Five! ヘ( ^o^)ノ\(^_^ )

  • Coma Donor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5019 posts
  • Joined 29-August 04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Toronto
  • Interests:CrossFit, Video Games, Awesome fucking music
  • Facebook

Posted 21 July 2006 - 01:00 PM

As for 11:45, it's 3/4 5/4. I mean, you never know what the BAND actually considers it to be. They might look at it as 8/4. Point being, there are eight beats, not seven, so 5/4 after 3/4.


Keep in mind that Omar has no music theory, so he has no idea what time signature it's in. He just knows what he feels, and that's what he plays. It's not like he decided to meticulously construct some rediculously shifty and complicated song because he felt like it. It's just what he feels.

#20 Trash.the.Ego

Trash.the.Ego

    Miranda

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 296 posts
  • Joined 06-September 05

Posted 21 July 2006 - 02:36 PM


As for 11:45, it's 3/4 5/4. I mean, you never know what the BAND actually considers it to be. They might look at it as 8/4. Point being, there are eight beats, not seven, so 5/4 after 3/4.


Keep in mind that Omar has no music theory, so he has no idea what time signature it's in. He just knows what he feels, and that's what he plays. It's not like he decided to meticulously construct some rediculously shifty and complicated song because he felt like it. It's just what he feels.


Considering that Jon helps compose the music with Omar when it comes to paper and fullblown arrangement... there likely is theory within Omar's so called 'ignorance'. I think it's more of Omar not wanted to be held by Theory while he writes more than actually not knowing it.

This is if anything a breath of fresh air and one of the things that makes Omar so reminiscent of Robert Fripp (even though Fripp was classically trained and if anything understood theory to the point that he went on to do his best to create/build something new). If you write music the structural holdings of music theory will creep up on you no matter what... it's just the issue of not letting it control the art in anyway.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users